Debaser
LANL Gets Grant To Map Moon Surface
Wed Oct 20 21:26:34 1999


Finally found this after seeing it blurbed on HeadlineNews earlier today. Thoughts to the impact this may have on the MoonCam? Strange timing.

Jason

From the ABQJournal
LANL Gets Grant To Map Moon Surface
By John Fleck
Journal Staff Writer

Los Alamos National Laboratory scientists have been given a
$1.9 million grant to create the most detailed map of the moon ever made.

Using data collected by NASA's Lunar Prospector spacecraft,
the researchers will make a map that shows the chemical
composition of the entire lunar surface, something never before possible.

In the near term, it'll help scientists understand the history and evolution of Earth's nearest celestial neighbor.

But for the dreamers, it has long-range practical value -- a
miner's map to the mineral resources of the moon. "Those are the resources that we are going to use on the moon for building a lunar colony," said Lunar Prospector chief scientist Alan Binder.

Binder sees a colony exploiting the aluminum, iron and other
mineral resources found by Lunar Prospector. But that's in the mists of the distant future.

In the meantime, scientists at Los Alamos have several
computers full of data collected by Lunar Prospector that needs to be turned into a useful picture of the moon.

From January 1998 to July 1999, the National Aeronautics and
Space Administration satellite orbited the moon, training
instruments developed at Los Alamos on the lunar surface.
Mountains of data were accumulated which, among other
things, showed signs of pockets of ice at the moon's north and south poles.

But much of the data has not been closely studied.
That's why NASA on Tuesday announced a $3 million grant to
Binder's Lunar Research Institute, which led the Lunar
Prospector project, to analyze the data.

Binder said $1.9 million of that will go to Los Alamos, which not only designed the Lunar Prospector instruments but has been in the forefront of understanding the data found so far.

Humans landed six times on the moon between 1969 and 1972,
but it's not been possible until now to make a detailed map of the surface, said David Lawrence, one of the Los Alamos scientists working on the project.

With the spacecraft's data, the scientists will be able to find other geologically interesting places on the moon that were not visited by the Apollo astronauts.

"We're picking out interesting places that no one knew about
because no one landed there," Lawrence said. Lawrence likened Apollo-based geology to trying to understand Earth solely by visiting Santa Fe, New York and London -- Lunar
Prospector's data will provide a much more complete picture, he said.

The work is likely to employ more than 15 people at Los
Alamos and take two years to complete, Lawrence said.

Grumpy and a little Curious too
Wow!!! Wouldn't that be funny if . . .
Wed Oct 20 21:37:16 1999


they had been watching this site???

Debaser
The same had crossed my mind...
Wed Oct 20 22:30:23 1999


however, I'm pretty sure that the timing, while strange, is merely coincidental. The lunar prospector was collecting data from mid-98 to early 99 (I think that's right) and they were just awarded the grant to put the maps together. I'm pretty sure given the bureaucracies involved, its been in the works for quite a while...even if they were to see these ideas, I don't think they'd move that quickly. I *think*.

Jason

Gatekeeper....
Think again.....
Wed Oct 20 22:41:25 1999


Yes things are not what they seem gentlemen....

It's all good in the long run, continue the theme....

Smaller fish yes but....image's from the private sector of the moon would not be a bad idea....keep the haughty in check.


Hiya Mr. NSA peeker....We do know it's still can be blocked in a myriad of way's so what's the harm in a little creative thinking?


Gates of Babylon.....

Debaser
Okay, I'll rephrase... :)
Wed Oct 20 22:55:44 1999


It would take more than that to kill this. There's a good point elsewhere (and it slips my mind who made it, apologies) that even if its an accurate report and someone's seen ideas here and brought them back to Los Alamos (what an odd place for this to come out of, hmm?) and the Powers that Be, and its a real project, industry cannot survive on possibly incomplete data from the government alone. Two initial points that private industry might be interested in:

1. Los Alamos is the same place that is at the center of Chinagate. Is the best organization from which to entrust blueprints for future endeavors?

2. New technology exists in the likes of IKONOS which may not have been around in 97 when the lunar prospector was built. Or it may not have been used. We'll see.

Jason

Mr. NSA
"Creative thinking" = curiousity and remember . . .
Thu Oct 21 02:24:16 1999


the old saying "Curiousity Killed the Cat" . . .

:(

Grand Vizier
Re: LANL Gets Grant To Map Moon Surface
Wed Oct 20 22:13:25 1999


I don't get....why would NASA put a satellite into moon orbit, map the entire surface, and apparantly have nobody ready to go over the pictures with a fine-tooth comb as soon as they started streaming back to earth? I mean it looks as though they have kept this baby in cold-storage for a year and a half, minimum, and only now are gearing up to see what they got (?)
This does look a little coincidental doesn't it Jason, considering the grounded and serious give and take that's been taking place regarding Hazy's own proposed moon-cam idea?
And now we only have to wait another two years while they get their act together to put out a lunar pictorial map? Oohhh, I can't wait.
If the right per$on or per$on$ could be found, Hazy could still beat them to the street with fine pictures of Luna.

Grendel
Re: why the delay?
Wed Oct 20 23:42:58 1999


Could be they need to 'edit' the pix first to remove things (like existing bases) they don't want the mapmakers to see? Ooops! I must have taken a Hoagie pill by mistake. :)

Anyhow, where are the pix now? I'd like to look at them, even in raw format. Or are they still in digital form? I went to the Lunar Orbiter site but didn't see anywhere to click for moon pictures - just a lot of press releases. Could they possibly take all those pix and then not even print them out to have a look and see what they've got? Surely human nature wouldn't allow it (assuming humans are still calling the shots at NASA).

Or are they classified for some reason? My understanding was that this sort of material was supposed to be in the public domain. Am I looking in the wrong place. Or is there some rule they can't release the pix until the mapmaking is finished? Anyone help me out here?

Debaser
Grendel, my impression is that...
Thu Oct 21 00:38:20 1999


all images that pass through government agencies are reviewed for "release". If you watch the NASA/JPL sites carefully, you rarely hear them talk about pics being up immediately, but "when they're ready for the public eye" or "upon release". It strikes me that there is policy for releasing information even in space...I think I'll go on a hunt, I'll let you know what I find ;)

Jason

Debaser
Best explanation of policy so far...
Thu Oct 21 01:45:49 1999


is in the Data Availbility section of NASA's Space Policy Guide.

Its pretty vague or flexible, depending on how you look at it. It strikes me as reading it that it parallels many job contracts that say you've got a job for x amount of time, but nearly anything you do can get you fired. Data "should be released as quickly as possible"...but "as quickly as possible" gets some definition: It could require quality assessment, peer review, etc. It could also be deemed not fit for the public's eyes, conceivably. In my mind, you don't leave people the opportunity to say that you may be massaging data, you release the raw data (be it images, stats or whatever) with the big, bold, blinking-ass disclaimer that it is only RAW data and only moronic pseudo-scientists who would be better fit working the fry machine would use it in a public forum. But then...I'm waiting for the job offer to head up NASA along with everything else I have an opinion about ;)

Jason

Science1
Prospector data
Thu Oct 21 02:35:45 1999


Here are some addys, the first is a place to get all 19 CD's
of all the raw data.
http://wundow.wustl.edu/lunarp/level0.html

Same basic stuff, different source
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/database/www-nmc?98-001A-00E

Here is the jumpoff point for some stuff on prospector.
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunarprosp.html

Prospector had spectrometers and magnitometers, no visable light camara, which is no big deal, since an asskicking 3-D photo mural can be constructed from this data, plus a whole lot more, like the spectral signatures of all the stuff on the surface, and "gravity maps". They will be making all sorts of complete maps, spectral, magnetic and combinations of them (overlays. This will take a lot of time. It takes about two months to analyze the raw telemetry from the booster and upper stage (launch performance data) on your typical comsat launch. There is nowhere near the amount or complexity of data on these launches compared to the data prospector sent down, and this is the least of it, it has to be run through all sorts of machine cycle intense processes to make use of it. Prospector just finished in July, it probaly took them a long time just to collate data, sort through duplicate downllinks, etc. I really cannot find anything too suspect about this timeline wise, mooncam is the upstart here, prospector has been on its time vector for much longer, so mooncam is "co", prospector's data analysis is "incident". No intentional convergence.

GOM
Grendel, I agree 100% . . .
Thu Oct 21 02:17:24 1999


Quote: "where are the pix now?"

This really is outrageous behavior. I'm not sure that I can trust the pix now, even if they do release them.

:(

Scott W
Someonw call Joe Firmage.
Thu Oct 21 04:20:54 1999


I'm f***ing-A serious on that. The MoonCam sounds like his cup of tea.

I bet, witht he right help, we COULD beat NASA to the punch, but here's the problem...

I'm going out on a limb and assuming the imaging equipment in the Ikonos satelite is classifed, and there's no way we could use it. Meaning we'd have to either (a) develope our own system and hope it isn't lassified under some obscure "National Security" reason, or (b) buy Russian technology, with is inferior I would imagine.

Maybe I'm thinking like Hoaglund here, but the timing IS a bit strange to me...

GOM
Morning Scott, I had previously suggested . . .
Thu Oct 21 11:50:53 1999


Firmage and/or Bigelow as two possible people that could really make this baby fly. However, Tilos came back with a response that they both have different agendas. I failed to follow up on that comment, but maybe he will expand on it today for us. Tilos has had some previous contact with Joe so I guess anything's possible . . .

Just my opinion here, but it appears to me that we are a long way from being ready to approach anyone on this yet. I think Gates would probably agree with me, and imo he is one of the keys to whip this into shape. Even though it's very interesting and exciting, I know it's over my head.

Da Grump

tilos
I believe Joe has decided to permanently sever any contact
Thu Oct 21 15:02:02 1999


with me. He can be contacted through ISSO easily enough if anyone cares to make the effort. There are some things I am investigating at present that may change my opinion and if so I will try and contact Joe directly. At present I see myself as of little value in any dealings with Mr. Firmage and most likely would be a major liability ). I think the MoonCam is a exciting idea and will glady remove myself from the equation if my presence is an obstacle to forming an alliance of some type.

My comments on Bigelow having his own agenda are pure speculation and my personal intuitive guess is that he has ing more cryptic than necessary I will make this statement. If my hunch is right then "Disclosure" has already taken place but not in the way I expected. In fact only a determined and dedicated seeker of this "Disclosure" will find it. I have read "The Truth" and if anyone takes the time to read the 600+ page version they will see why I state that Joe has his own agenda as at least by my intrepretation it is clearly stated how he came to be involved in all this(Bigelow I am assuming is part of the same agenda but that is just my personal opinion with nothing of substance to back it up except my "feeling" of a connection ).

I would like to reiterate that I have no inside knowledge other than bits and pieces I have come by through chance or maybe some ability I have that is part intuition and part logic based analysis. Heka, for all I know I'm a delusional nut that needs to go back to watching the X-Files :)

GOM
Thx Danny!!! No, I do not believe that . . .
Thu Oct 21 15:16:18 1999


you should remove yourself from the MoonCam effort. As I recall, it was you that initially triggered the conversation about the moon that finally worked its wandering way around to the MoonCam. I did not mean to imply that about you (to get out) in any way. My thought, which I don't remember getting any response to, some time ago was that you, Eddie and Jason could be the core group. I know this is way over my head. If you three can work together, I think you will go far. I will be happy to provide all the constructive criticism you need!!! :)

My other thought was that Grendel should be the honorary head of the group, but maybe he wants to be more involved than that. I'm just throwing out ideas, mainly just to have them kicked around, mulled over, then either improved or thrown out.

Take care,

Da Grump

Popeye (tGoSP)
Re: LANL Gets Grant To Map Moon Surface
Wed Oct 20 22:23:20 1999


I wonder what they're REALLY going to be doing with that
$2mil on that project? Probably some hidden agendas, as usual.

GOM
Hey Popeye! Picture this . . . Can you imagine what this
Thu Oct 21 02:28:28 1999


group could do with $2million and access to those pix!!!

:(

Popeye (tGoSP)
Yes. But they would never give us access
Thu Oct 21 04:14:21 1999


to those pics, or any others. Much less money.

Although I've been following the MoonCam stuff (as much as
I can right now, which isn't much), I have resisted posting
any "negative" messages, because everyone seemed so into it.
I didn't want to dampen any spirits or enthusiasm.

But....I think the MoonCam project is a bit large and
complex for the "likes of us" to accomplish. I'm not saying
that it is impossible, just probably fairly improbable.
But it would be nice to be proven wrong.

That's why I suggested the Passive Reception of Mars Images
idea, which is quite a bit smaller in scope, resource needs,
costs, complexity, etc. And could probably be done in a
"hobbyist" sense.

What would have been even better, and easier, though, would
have been the reception of Clementine Moon images. Much
easier than Mars. But not possible now. :(

Debaser
tGoSP, please do...
Thu Oct 21 14:15:08 1999


post the negative, only request is that its in the form of constructive criticism. I've enjoyed our discussions and I respect your ability to ferret out possible problems and logically analyze situations. This is a' rollin' and a voice of reality is always needed. While your message may be "this is highly unlikely to happen for these reasons", its those reasons we have to make sure to take into account...I think most of us know that its already highly unlikely but that doesn't stop us from pushing forth and trying to tip the odds a bit more in our favor :) The way I see it, its that or sit around a board listening to people who claim to have an in to the "TRUTH!!" tell you that when you learn how to act, you can have a treat ;)

Jason

Scott W
A propsosal about the MoonCam....
Thu Oct 21 04:13:50 1999


Should a seperate message board be set up for MoonCam an MoonCam only messages, or would that be a waste of time (at least right now)?

Comments...

tilos
Repost: This is not waving the White Flag of Surrender...
Thu Oct 21 21:43:51 1999


Reality Check 101
cc: Nad's Service Alliance
( Premptive Maintenance Specialists )

My personal opinion is that Gravitational Wave Antennaes are where the real action is in the search for extra-solar system communications. I suspect this has already been accomplished. The goal of the MoonCam and LEO would simply be to put pressure on those who know to start releasing more data ( or they can hire us all so we will shut-up for fear of imprisonment - or worse )

In my profession "Projects" are often never intended to be physically built but are merely tools to accomplish the same goal in a more cost-effective manner; however, a legitimate effort is still made on these projects and sometimes they are actually built for lack of positve response to the pressure they were intended to generate. The MoonCam / Project LEO will be much like this if it is to accomplish the objective of disclosure ( whatever the "Truth' turns out to be ).

If done in a credible manner the projects will never be completed because they would be a duplication of previously completed work.

I think all should understand that something of this nature could be substantially near completion and then be abandoned upon "Disclosure" or because of other counter-measures we may be unable to predict. Some will have a hard time accepting this if it happens but rest assured the probability is on the high end that LEO and the MoonCam will never get off the Launch Pad.

Danny:)

Debaser
tilos, well said...
Fri Oct 22 00:50:02 1999


and I agree. Early on, that's a reality we ought to face and understand. Most working through this have different objectives they'd like to see come about -- if those objectives are dependent upon the physical completion, it might be pragmatic to understand that many things could make the actual implementation even more unlikely. That's not to say that it should be abandoned, though...not at all :)

My only thought is that if we start to see some sort of disclosure start to appear, the question remains how much is *not* being released? That's part of the overall problem between UFOlogy and the government...when there is full disclosure, how will the researchers know its full disclosure? Right now the government says it isn't hiding anything...are we in full disclosure?

Jason

Nancy
Right on, Tilos!
Thu Oct 21 21:55:42 1999


I agree. I have done a project or two in my day for the purpose of calling someone's bluff. Then they must either put up or shut up. A lot of information comes out of the woodwork in the process.

tilos
I'm not quitting or leaving just going to
Thu Oct 21 23:28:02 1999


let my silence speak for awhile.

Those who are working on positive things know I'm easy to find.

I want to contact Beal re: the MoonCam but I understand there may already be interested parties with access to capital or at least seed money. A summary of efforts to date
in the search for sponsors, venture capital, etc.. in my e-mail would be appreciated.

One of the things appealing about Beal is I have the feeling that they have already experienced some adversity as a newcomer in the launch business. Prehaps they will know what to expect in the form of sleazy tactics and take it in stride as is prudent.

Just a thought ...

Good Night
and
Stay Well :)

GOM
Hey gang! Check out the IoCam . . .
Fri Oct 22 14:42:01 1999



> MEDIA RELATIONS OFFICE
> JET PROPULSION LABORATORY
> CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
> NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION
> PASADENA, CALIF. 91109 TELEPHONE (818) 354-5011
> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov
>
> Contact: Jane Platt (818) 354-0880
>
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE October 22, 1999
>
> CLOSEST-EVER PICTURE OF VOLCANIC MOON IO RELEASED
>
> The closest-ever image of Jupiter's moon Io, taken
> during a daring flyby of the volcanic moon by NASA's Galileo spacecraft on October 10, 1999, shows a lava field near the center of an erupting volcano.
>
> The image, available at http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/io, was taken from an altitude of 671 kilometers (417 miles) and is 50 times better than the previous best, taken by the Voyager spacecraft in 1979.
>
> Visible in the image are new lava flows from the volcanic center named Pillan, an area with erupting lava hotter than any known eruption that occurred on Earth within billions of years. Scientists will be studying this image to determine the characteristics of the eruption, along with other data due to be sent back by the spacecraft in coming weeks.
>
> Not surprisingly, fierce radiation took its toll on the spacecraft. Io's orbit lies in a region of intense radiation from Jupiter's radiation belts, which can affect the performance of or even knock out various spacecraft instruments. A mere fraction of the dose that Galileo received would be fatal to a human. Because of the radiation risk, the Io encounters were scheduled for the end of the two-year extended mission, after the spacecraft had already fulfilled its other mission objectives.
>
> Most of the Io images were taken using a "fast camera" mode, where the camera itself pre-processes the image to average the brightness in adjacent parts of the picture. Galileo engineers say it appears that Jupiter's radiation caused the process to get out of sync, which degraded the quality of the images. Fortunately, images that were taken in other camera modes, including the newly released image, apparently did not suffer ill effects from the radiation.
>
> "When we're flying the spacecraft through this high-
> radiation zone near Io's orbit, we have to plan for the likely radiation and figure out how to deal with it," said Galileo Project Manager Jim Erickson. "We used several different modes to see how each would work. Now that we know this particular camera mode didn't work well amidst the radiation, we'll use other modes from our six different types for the next Io flyby."
>
> That second Io flyby is scheduled for November 25 at an altitude of only 186 miles (300 kilometers).
>
> Galileo's original mission was to spend two years studying Jupiter, its moons and magnetic environment. That mission ended in December 1997, then was followed by a two-year extended mission scheduled to end in January 2000. Galileo, the first spacecraft to orbit Jupiter, has revolutionized our knowledge of the giant planet and its moons and has provided thousands of colorful images.
>
> During the October 10 Io flyby, the radiation also
> apparently triggered a problem with Galileo's near-infrared mapping spectrometer. The instrument has a grating that allows it to measure different wavelengths of light as they are reflected onto a sensor. This enables the instrument to produce a spectrum of the light from objects it observes. During the flyby, the grating did not move as it should have, which means that only one set of wavelengths was measured instead of the complete spectrum. The resulting data provides maps at each of several wavelengths in very high spatial resolution. These maps can be used to show the distribution of materials on the surface and measure the temperature of the lava in Io's volcanoes, but detailed spectral information for identifying materials on the surface will be limited to the early part of the encounter where full spectral data were acquired.
>
> The Galileo flight team is still evaluating the status of another instrument, the ultraviolet spectrometer, which has been acting up for two months. Since this instrument was not scheduled to be used during the Io encounter, it was switched off while engineers diagnose its grating problem.
>
> Additional information and pictures taken by the Galileo spacecraft are available at the mission's web site:
> http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov.
>
> Galileo was launched from the Space Shuttle Atlantis on October 18, 1989. It entered orbit around Jupiter on December 7, 1995. JPL manages the Galileo mission for NASA's Office of Space Science, Washington, D.C. JPL is operated for NASA by the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, Calif.
>
> #####
>
> 10/22/99 JP
> #99-090