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Accountability
You have my word on this...
Sat Oct 23 09:16:27 1999
If all of you stick with this...if all of you see it through...continue to take
the high road, and complete this project...the final package, when it is ready,
will be presented to the right people including the gentleman I spoke of below!
I will do it personally and I will get you a response! You deserve nothing less!
On this you have my word! On this...I will hold myself Accountable!
Accountability
Accountability
Apparently ones word...
Mon Oct 25 11:47:17 1999
doesn't mean much around here...or did I create too much pressure to perform? Oh
well, back to the old "shot gun" approach, I see! Hope you all stick
with something...or I will be sipping gin and tonics on the Moon...and you will
still be shooting for it!
Hazy Editor
Accountable, to ourselves first - can be
Sat Oct 23 15:06:48 1999
a hard act to follow - and is always the wisest choice to make, the best path to
follow.
Let me again emphasize - as we move forward and on - that we were tested these
past few days and some of us didn't do very well. If the topics we discuss are
so important (and I believe they are), then we shouldn't allow ourselves to
become consumed by bickering. We should focus on the goals we wish to achieve,
and not the distractions which misdirect our attention.
Any group of people will have obstacles to overcome to achieve their
objectives. The obstacles might include many different things (money, resources,
information, etc.), but the biggest obstacle we have to overcome many more times
is being able to get along with people we despise for one reason or another.
Stephens instantly pushes buttons in some of us to push us to outrage and
beyond. How will we treat the politician who wields a lot of power and with whom
we disagree? How will we treat the scientist or researcher whose ideas are
beyond the fringe of our current understanding and acceptance? If we can't treat
them on a higher level than some of what we've seen the past few days - then the
"exceptional" or "great" ones might not feel comfortable
coming into our forum.
Something to ponder while you are hopefully enjoying a wonderful weekend.
interested observer
Subject matter: new energy
Sat Oct 23 21:43:10 1999
Thought you all would enjoy these links...
>Home of Primordial Energy; philosphical and technical discussions of
>experiments by the late Bruce E. DePalma regarding implications of his
>paradigm-shattering discoveries documenting anomalous gravitational,
>inertial, and electromagnetic properties of rotating objects due to
>rotational interactions with the primordial energy field "medium"
of Zero
>Point quantum vacuum fluctuations as relate to his n-Machine homopolar
>generator device to potentially harness Zero Point Energy as mentioned in
>1998 DOE CNES summary of public comments. http://www.depalma.pair.com
>
>
>Institute for New Energy; articles, networking, conferences, links,
>regarding the research and development of many types of new-energy
>technologies including cold fusion, Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation
>(LENT) devices to neutralize radioactive wastes; publishes New Energy
>News and Journal of New Energy under the guidance of Dr. Hal Fox
>of Fusion Information Center and Trenergy, Inc. http://www.padrak.com/ine
>
>
>Infinite Energy Magazine; edited by former Massachusetts Institute of
>Technology science writer Dr. Eugene Mallove, publishing articles and
>networking with new energy researchers offering documention on various
>discoveries including ten years of increasing verification and applications
>of the Low Energy Nuclear Reactions phenomena first called Cold Fusion in
>1989. http://www.infinite-energy.com
>
>
>International Space Sciences Organization; new network to apply available
>science and technologies transferable from UFO data and possible secret
>advanced US military research, as well as new discoveries and inventions,
>for space travel, new energy devices, and for remediation of global social
>and environmental problems, President is Joseph Firmage, former CEO of US
>Web and "UFO Celebrity" featured on A&E TV Investigative
Reports
>http://www.isso.org
>
>
>Internet Science Education Project, state-of-the-art internet collaboration
>organization for development of new-energy technologies and advanced
>theoretical physics research "to make Star Trek real" by
application of, and
>stimulation by, the post-quantum physics of consciousness work of Dr. Jack
>Sarfatti, former University of California physics professor and for decades
>a leading figure in mind/consciousness research now being applied towards
>conscious nanocomputers and Zero Point quantum vacuum propulsion systems for
>space travel http://www.stardrive.org
Robert A.M. Stephens
Explain mooncam premise?
Sun Oct 24 04:56:57 1999
do it now or you will all be punished.
We are love
RAMS
Scott W
Basically, the premise is this...
Sun Oct 24 05:27:55 1999
(1) The main purpose, as I understand it, is to use a similar image gathering
system like Ikonos to gain high resolution, highly detailed, topographical and
geological information of the lunar surface, in order to detect the best
possible landing sites for any future missions, public or private.
(2) The secondary purpose, and the one I think would draw huge amounts of public
interest, would be a secondary camera, one with relatively low resolution, to
provide a "WebCam" of sorts, basically, a continuous streaming image
of the lunar surface, whenever data exchange with Earth is possible. If I'm
correct, a 24-hr exchange of data would be impossible, without a secondary satellite
in a polar orbit that could act as an exchange between the primary satellite and
the Earth.
I hope this helps,
Scott W
Robert A.M. Stephens
RAMS to Scott W.
Sun Oct 24 06:11:18 1999
Scott W
Basically, the premise is this...
Sun Oct 24 05:27:55 1999
(1) The main purpose, as I understand it, is to use a similar image gathering
system like Ikonos to gain high resolution, highly detailed, topographical and
geological
information of the lunar surface, in order to detect the best possible landing
sites for any future missions, public or private.
RAMS: why? interesting idea, but why? Until the American public gets off the
entitlement program--thinking that government owes them everything, there will
not be funding for NASA to go back to the moon. People must demand this.
However, if private citizens were involved on thier own by doing this as
propsoed, this would lend to that notion greatly. Eprime Aerospace out of
Titusville does private launches. They could or would throw the bird up.
(2) The secondary purpose, and the one I think would draw huge amounts of public
interest, would be a secondary camera, one with relatively low resolution, to
provide a "WebCam" of sorts, basically, a continous streaming image of
the lunar surface, whenever data exchange with Earth is possible. If I'm
correct, a 24-hr
exchange of data would be impossible, without a secondary satelite in a polar
orbit that could act as an exchange between the primary satelite and the Earth.
I hope this helps,
Scott W
RAMS: This helps greatly now. Why not have a equatorial satellite d o it all
with a simply RCS to move it around so that it could be allin one and send video
back to Earth. The dark side of the moon should be rather intersting and we have
seen little of it.
RAMS
GOM
rams, without starting any fighting . . .
Sun Oct 24 14:03:12 1999
There is no dark side of the moon.
Da Grump
:(
Anonymous
Re: The dark side of the moon...FYI
Sun Oct 24 10:02:52 1999
One bit of information I came across while researching equipment for a cam is
the following online chat with Dr. Shostak...When I read the cost of placing
SETI telescopes behind the moon, I was very discouraged. Following is a
portion of that online chat conversation.
Janet Leigh
----------------------
Are We Alone?
Dr. Seth Shostak
ABCNEWS.com
Sept 3 � Is there life out there? If so, what would it look like, and how
would we find it?
Dr. Seth Shostak, an astronomer at the SETI Institute in Mountain View, Calif.,
and author of Sharing the Universe: Perspectives on Extraterrestrial Life,
joined us today for an online chat. Shostak holds a degree in physics from
Princeton University, and a Ph.D. in astronomy from the California Institute of
Technology.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:08pm ET
Allen, if we detect a signal from aliens, the chances are that they'll be quite
far away -- maybe 1,000 light-years or so. We can't go there, and any chit-chat
will be VERY slow.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikey from [199.107.144.2], at 1:08pm ET
Mr. Shostak: I've read that SETI surveys are limited to relatively nearby star
systems. What percentage of the galaxy are we actually surveying?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:09pm ET
Only a tiny fraction, Mickey! Our experiment, called Project Phoenix, which is
the most sensitive search ever, has only checked out about 500 stars. That's
one-billionth of the stars in the Galaxy! We've only just begun...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim P from [204.128.147.65], at 1:10pm ET
Hello Seth : It seems to me that the "ideal" location to listen for ET
signals would be the "back side" of the moon. On the back side of the
moon, the receiving dish would be "shielded" from all terrestrial RF
and we would not need any elaborate program code, as we now have, to filter out
terrestrial signals. The receiving station dish would relay its ET signals to an
orbiting moon satellite which would only act as a repeater... to the earth
station labs for analysis. Why can't this be done?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:10pm ET
Jim-guy, you're right as rain. The back side of the moon would be a perfect
place to put our SETI telescopes -- no terrestrial interference. The only
problem is MONEY. It would cost perhaps $100 million or more to do this, and
SETI in this country is all privately financed. We haven't got sufficient cash.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**SNIP**
---------------------------------------
Jed from [209.116.158.34], at 1:26pm ET
Do you think that the government would attempt to hide the discovery of a true
signal or keep the information from being released? Will SETI release it to the
world regardless of what the government may do?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:27pm ET
Lots of people expect a cover-up, Jed, but this isn't realistic. You can't keep
something that's in the sky, free for anyone to detect, secret! You can't
squirrel it away in a warehouse in eastern Nevada! We've found some interesting
signals, and while the news media call us, the government doesn't seem
interested!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kyle@OSU from [128.146.238.212], at 1:27pm ET
Would you tell us about the nearest "close call" you had. That is, a
time when you thought you had *the* evidence, but it turned out to be something
else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:28pm ET
"Close call," Kyle? Well, of course they weren't "close"
'cause the signals all turned out to be terrestrial. But in 1997 we picked up a
signal that had us going for about a day. No one went home (we were glued to the
computer screens, as I am now...) and no one got anything to eat. It was fun...
until we found out that it was only the SOHO solar satellite!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lowkey from [24.93.50.87], at 1:29pm ET
Do you feel that the privatization of SETI has been a good thing overall? Or
have the challenges of locating private funding for SETI been much more
difficult? How willing does the private industry seem to be in endorsing this
type of research overall? Would you say the climate for securing funds from the
private industry is becoming easier or more difficult?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seth Shostak at 1:30pm ET
There's good news and bad news, Lowkey. The bad news is that building really
ambitious SETI hardware (such as a huge array, possibly on the far side of the
moon) takes more money than we can currently raise. The good news is that we
don't have to go to Congress every year to convince them that what we're doing
is worth the money.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Debaser
Excellent, Janet
Sun Oct 24 17:32:10 1999
Great thing to know how the people in the midst of the field are considering
these projects. Furthermore, you've given me an idea linked to the MoonCam. This
object will be in orbit around the moon. Without looking into the logisitics of
the orbit, I'd imagine there will be a time when the feed will be blocked out as
the satellite moves behind the moon. At that point, I wonder if it would be
possible to have outward sensors sweep the sky, using the moon as a shield from
the Earth, buffer the results and transmit on the end of the blackout. I'd have
to look into the mathematics of this and the time on the farside to even see if
it would be practical, but if these possibilities exist, that may give us
another goal for the mooncam to assist in reaching!
Jason
Anonymous
Re: The dark side of the moon...FYI
Sun Oct 24 16:17:43 1999
Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Hazy had narrowed its focus
recently to examining the idea of privately funding and orbiting a hi-resolution
camera or cameras into moon orbit for transmission back to earth, so that we
could finally get really good pics and video feed of the lunar surface. You've
got to admit that the lunar pictures the public has access to presently are
pretty pathetic, compared to pictures we have seen of the earth, e.g. the recent
satellite picture posted on top of Hazy showing a picture of the Washington
Monument...quite amazing in resolution. I suppose the arguement could be made
that the moon is too far away to send back pictures of the same high quality
resolution as the one taken of the Washington Monument, but I have a hunch that
that arguement could be shot down in brief order by the folks here at Hazy.
Debaser
Repost: MoonCam letter
Sun Oct 24 05:51:40 1999
Thanks Scott, that was a good summary of the current direction. The idea started
with a request from GOM to write a letter to either NASA or private interests to
spark the creation of the MoonCam, a detailed analysis of the lunar surface
utilizing the recent IKONOS technology and a live 24/7 view of the surface.
GOM's interest was mostly entertainment and some other justifications were
brought up to provide better incentive for the cost/benefit analysis of the
project. The below is the first draft of the letter requested, soon to become an
outline incorporating a mission statement and executive summary.
=======================
Dear Sirs,
There has been a recent discussion amongst a community on the Internet of which
I would appreciate your consideration and feedback.
Recently, the satellite IKONOS was set in orbit around the Earth. The images
that are being returned are simply stunning. We feel that a similar satellite
orbiting the moon will be of great scientific and educational benefit as well as
provide entertainment and an amount of stimulation to the public's realization
of the benefits of our space program.
We envision this satellite with the ability to orbit the moon and return
detailed real-time images of the lunar surface. While comprehensive maps of the
surface are available, we are not aware of cartography with the sort of detail
that is now possible. These pictures may provide insights into the composition
of the landscape, showing areas that may be more rocky than previously
considered or areas of dust that were once believed to be stable ground. With
the real-time imaging, we may also be able to gain a greater understanding of
minute changes in the terrain due to erosion from phenomenon particular to a
body with a lower gravitational effect and atmosphere, such as micrometeorites
and solar particles. As we enter the 21st century, such detailed analysis would
provide a step that would encourage all sectors of the economy as well as the
public to look towards the skies for our future and our space program for
leadership.
This sort of data will be a boon for all areas of interest. Scientists and
geologists will be able to add another facet of data to compare with other
findings, for instance, solar activity and its effects on minute areas of the
surface along with seismic activity correlation from the monitors left by the
Apollo missions. Economic innovators would have greater research on which to
base prospective ventures. Educators would have a unique tool to illustrate
lessons and captivate students. The general public would be as fascinated as the
students - imagine the common person's mind expanding as it dawns on them that
they're gazing at a body in the sky as they would glance at the grass beneath
their feet in the backyard!
Even the deployment of such a satellite could break new ground and provide
efficient launch for future missions. One thought was the possibility of a
"shuttle launch", where the lunar orbiter is placed in a high
geo-orbital position by the crew of the shuttle in the Earth's atmosphere.
Remotely deployed from this position rather than a ground launch seems to
possibly save significantly on fuel and open options for future probes.
We understand the myriad of difficulties and concepts involved in this
proposition but do feel the benefits would far out-weigh them. Thank you for
your time, consideration and any feedback or direction you can provide.
Sincerely,
Robert A.M. Stephens
RAMS to Debaser
Sun Oct 24 06:16:37 1999
Debaser
Repost: MoonCam letter
Sun Oct 24 05:51:40 1999
Thanks Scott, that was a good summary of the current direction. The idea started
with a request from GOM to write a letter to either NASA or private interests to
spark the creation of the MoonCam, a detailed analysis of the lunar surface
utilizing the recent IKONOS technology and a live 24/7 view of the surface.
GOM's
interest was mostly entertainment and some other justifications were brought up
to provide better incentive for the cost/benefit analysis of the project. The
below is
the first draft of the letter requested, soon to become an outline incorporating
a mission statement and executive summary.
=======================
Dear Sirs,
There has been a recent discussion amongst a community on the Internet of which
I would appreciate your consideration and feedback.
Recently, the satellite IKONOS was set in orbit around the Earth. The images
that are being returned are simply stunning. We feel that a similar satellite
orbiting the
moon will be of great scientific and educational benefit as well as provide
entertainment and an amount of stimulation to the public's realization of the
benefits of our
space program.
We envision this satellite with the ability to orbit the moon and return
detailed real-time images of the lunar surface. While comprehensive maps of the
surface are
available, we are not aware of cartography with the sort of detail that is now
possible. These pictures may provide insights into the composition of the
landscape,
showing areas that may be more rocky than previously considered or areas of dust
that were once believed to be stable ground. With the real-time imaging, we may
also be able to gain a greater understanding of minute changes in the terrain
due to erosion from phenomenon particular to a body with a lower gravitational
effect and
atmosphere, such as micrometeorites and solar particles. As we enter the 21st
century, such detailed analysis would provide a step that would encourage all
sectors of
the economy as well as the public to look towards the skies for our future and
our space program for leadership.
This sort of data will be a boon for all areas of interest. Scientists and
geologists will be able to add another facet of data to compare with other
findings, for instance,
solar activity and its effects on minute areas of the surface along with seismic
activity correlation from the monitors left by the Apollo missions. Economic
innovators
would have greater research on which to base prospective ventures. Educators
would have a unique tool to illustrate lessons and captivate students. The
general public
would be as fascinated as the students - imagine the common person's mind
expanding as it dawns on them that they're gazing at a body in the sky as they
would
glance at the grass beneath their feet in the backyard!
Even the deployment of such a satellite could break new ground and provide
efficient launch for future missions. One thought was the possibility of a
"shuttle
launch", where the lunar orbiter is placed in a high geo-orbital position
by the crew of the shuttle in the Earth's atmosphere. Remotely deployed from
this position
rather than a ground launch seems to possibly save significantly on fuel and
open options for future probes.
We understand the myriad of difficulties and concepts involved in this
proposition but do feel the benefits would far out-weigh them. Thank you for
your time,
consideration and any feedback or direction you can provide.
Sincerely,
=============================
Superb letter.
It would cost little to put a spectrometer onboard, also, to then give real time
feeback for mineral deposits beneath the moon's surface. Having a fully
dedicated vehicle with this sort of mission has not been done before for long
term deploy.
RAMS
Debaser
Thanks
Sun Oct 24 17:24:51 1999
And the spectrometer idea fits nicely into the package, at least in my early
assessment. One thing that should be looked into with this project is what the
lunar prospector was doing and what the data returned is expected to yield. I
think that avoiding recreation of exact goals would be a good thing; even if
this were to be taken up by private interests, they may well not view it as a
maximized venture if the experiments are as they were with previous missions
even if it was by the government and they may not be able to get their hands on
the data yet. Either way, an analysis of the lunar prospector would be very
beneficial to us in showing where our ideas are fresh and contrasting against
the past. Not to mention the learning it would afford us.
Jason
Calvin
The cutting edge...
Sun Oct 24 08:30:25 1999
http://www.darpa.mil/darpatech99/presentations.htm
Here's some light Sunday reading from the DARPA Technology Conference held in
Denver this summer. Topics run the gamut of current scientific inquiry. Enjoy!
Accountability Modified!
Wake up! The games afoot!
Sun Oct 24 09:58:59 1999
Shake out those cobwebs! Kudos where kudos are deserved...Robert you were
right-on about a lot of this...
Shuttle
Out to Pasture?
http://orlandosentinel.com/space/stories/s102499_shuttle24_57.htm
One
bold, new venture might change everything
http://orlandosentinel.com/space/stories/s102499_venture24_57.htm
Space
Coast Future in Doubt
http://orlandosentinel.com/space/stories/s102499_florida24_57.htm
It Takes
A Rocket Scientist - and Big Bucks
http://orlandosentinel.com/space/stories/s102499_rlv24_57.htm
Now or never...timing is everything...someones reaching out! Kick it into high
gear...I'm ready to make the calls!
Accountability
Hazy Editor
Accountability, if you're a little disappointed....
Mon Oct 25 13:18:29 1999
I wouldn't recommend being too much so....
I personally read all four articles (which is why I modified your post &
made corrections - to make sure people could get there easily)....
and found the subject material to be troubling for the following reasons:
1 - It confirms some of my fears about our space
program being in peril due to lack of proper funding.
2 - It provides substantial evidence to something
brought up on this discussion board a few weeks ago - that it is not likely that
severely damaged or destroyed shuttle craft would ever be rebuilt or replaced.
In other words - our current shuttle fleet is it - or what we gots is what we
gots.
3 - Another unsettling item mentioned in one of
these articles - there aren't any craft on the boards (drawing maybe - but none
being built and tested) intended to replace the shuttles at a distant point in
time and again no money set aside to fund this type of project.
4 - KSC or the SpaceCoast has a very uncertain
future. I can't say as I blame them. I've witnessed too many base closures at
sites I thought would never be shut down. Goes to show I don't understand what a
politician considers to be important for our military. It's obvious our space
program doesn't have much importance anymore either. To win elections, you've
got to fund the great big giveaway programs - military and space not included.
5 - To jump-start our advancement into space, it's
going to take many megabuck investments by people in the private sector to make
it happen. I'm skeptical here. No Henry Ford for the space industry has surfaced
yet, "Every American should have a Model TX33 parked in their driveway -
all black - of course!" Businesses are focused on immediate profits -
not taking kindly to making long-term investments with uncertain returns....
I personally didn't respond because I didn't have much positive to say. The
news, the facts - can be so damn depressing.
Accountability
Someone once told me...
Mon Oct 25 13:36:52 1999
that the Shuttles would never be replaced...because they already have
been...years ago...if there is multiple layers at NASA...the shuttle program may
already be going commercial...why re-invent the wheel...if you've already got
the replacement...better than starting from scratch! Perhaps "you know
who" would comment on this. I have always wondered about the relationships
within USA...so much money to be made...can't imagine it would just fade away!
No not disappointed, just hope Jason didn't put a lot of man hours in the
mission statement and outline for Moon Cam!
Debaser
Lets keep in mind...
Mon Oct 25 13:45:28 1999
that we're discussing a few different things here, all at once. While it may
seem to detract and blur our efforts on one project, they all tie together into
a common goal. I think the examination of different ideas at once is a
productive situation that lends the possibility of cross-subject ideas and more
people getting involved in various concepts. Sometimes when reading the boards,
I think how long its been since this or that has been discussed and then I look
back to find that its only been a couple days -- time seems to move more quickly
here :) Even if I had invested a lot of time on the more in-depth aspects of the
MoonCam, I wouldn't consider it a waste. Truth of the matter is that I haven't
been able to get to it yet but do plan to and I haven't seen anything that
discourages me from doing so...in fact, what I've seen has further encouraged me
to find the time to delve into it! We may have short attention spans from time
to time, but the other thing I've noticed is that it only takes one or two
focused people to steer the attention back when appropriate.
Keep dat chin up ;)
Jason
Serenity
Accountability: Thanks for the...
Mon Oct 25 15:00:29 1999
...links, which even I -- technologically and scientifically brain dead as I am
-- could understand.
I agree with Jason. Keep your chin up. There are forces in the cosmos who look
with favor on our efforts.
BTW, Dr. Steven Greer wrote an interesting article, "When Disclosure Serves
Secrecy," which is posted on the www.sightings.com website, which imo has
some points we should keep in mind
Debaser
Will check it out, Serenity, thanks! n/m
Mon Oct 25 17:17:12 1999
email: Hazy Editor